Re: Summary of "Syntactic Relationships" Expansion
Saul Epstein 
Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:09:56 -0500

From: Rob Zook <lalaith*unicom,net>
Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 10:22 PM
 
> At 07:54 PM 9/1/98 -0500, Saul Epstein wrote:
> > From: Rob Zook <rzook*informix,com>
> > Date: Tuesday, September 1, 1998 11:03 AM
> > 
> > > Saul Epstein wrote:
> > > 
> > > > <spokAT t'hyla uri'>
> > > > "That one (is) a friend OF Spock."

First,

> > > Ummm..,that one's pretty metaphorical Saul, I don't think it
> > > translates very well.

then,

> Well, the "that one" makes the whole sentance a use of a certain
> figure of speech, and the particular "that" you choose to use, I 
> think takes that into account already.

and then,

> Yeah, I just mean that there should be a better way of translating
> that.

I'm not attached to this hypothetical Vulcan form either as a
naturally occuring feature (which I intended) or as a manufactured
translation for an unusual English feature (which was not what I
intended). So I welcome any better Vulcan forms with equivalent
translations into English. I'm afraid I don't see the metaphor you
refer to either in the English or the Vulcan, but I don't think that
really matters. 
 
> Maybe an initial post of all the latins one would be a good start
for
> an initial comparison?

Sure, though I suddenly wonder how useful this will be. My
Latin-English dictionary lists five "cases." I've looked them up in
turn in a regular dictionary...

Nominative - noun is subject "of a finite verb"
Genitive --- noun is object "expressing possession, source, or
             a partitive concept"
Dative ----- noun is "indirect object of a finite verb"
Accusative - noun is "direct object of a finite verb"
Ablative --- noun is object "expressing removal, deprivation,
             direction from, source, cause, or agency"

These definitions seem drawn from descriptions of English grammar,
but then grammarians of English were historically over-awed by
grammarians of Latin so it may be this is how the latter understood
Latin to work as well as how the former understood English to work.

In practice, "indirect" objects often take cases other than the
dative. In English, "direct" objects sometimes do take the dative.
Clear hallmarks of natural language ;-)

(I also note with grim satisfaction that "genitive" and "accusative"
were originally mistranslations for Greek terms to the effect of
"generic" and "causative," which explains why the Latin labels make
so little sense.)

--
from Saul Epstein
locus*planetkc,com - www,planetkc,com/locus
"Surakri' ow'phahcur the's'hi the's'cha'; the's'phahrka
     the's'hi surakecha'."
                                        -- K'dvarin Urswhl'at