Re: a more "romajish" notation
Rob Zook 
Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:31:13 -0600

At 01:49 PM 3/18/98 PST, Sorik of Vulcan wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>Isn't the Zvelebil notation that which is on the lexicon page of 
>Marketa's?  If so, then this is how I would change it, that is, if I 
>were her.
>
>Vowels:
>i  -as in eng. "pea", or "sea"
>u  -   "       "boot"
>e  -   "       "gray/grey"
>o  -   "       "boat"
>^  the same as in the ZC
>a  - as in german Bach or French Patte.  "Say ahhh"  (see bottom of 
>message for further thoughts on the "a" sound.
>ih -as in eng. "pit" or "pin"
>uh -   "       "but", not "put"
>hu -   "       "put" and "could"
>eh -   "       "bet", or "head"

Well, this looks very similar to how Marketa pronounced them during
our phone call, however, I would like to stick to the notation of just
five vowels that Saul just posted. Once we establish the rules for
the allophones, we will only need the 5 symbols and context should
tell us which specific sound to use. I might try and use phonetical
letters, if the number of vowel allophones turns out to number less
then 15 or so.

I do not like the idea of adding an <h> after the vowel to indicate
it's shortness. That would be exactly opposite to how Marketa was
pronouncing words like d'vel'nahr, were the nahr has a longer vowel.


>Consonants:
>ts -as in "tse tse fly" or "tsunami"
>ks or x - as in "ax" or "fox"
>y  -as in eng. "yolk"

Saul has proposed a while ago that for <c> to use <ts> instead. He proposed
that we use the <c> to represent the post-aveolar fricative
"sh" like in <shout> instead. I have seen this notation used elsewhere
and I like it as well. <ks> already represents the sound you propose. 
Both Saul and the ZC have <x> refering to the uvelar fricative "ch" sound 
(similar to ch in German "ich" but further back in the throat I think). 
So I would leave that as is.

>I think there should be different characters in Vulcan that sound 
>like...
>er -as in eng. "air"
>ur -as in eng. "bird" or "fur"
>ir -as in eng. "ear"
>ar -   "       "bar" or "car"

Now this idea I do find agreeable, and will think on it.



>The following could be used for sentient names.
>ek - as in Vul. "Sarek"
>ok -     "      "Tuvok"
>ik -     "      "Vorik" and "Sorik"
>el -     "      "T'Pel"
>ella -   "      "T'Pella" this one sounds far too Spanish, so maybe this 
>one should not be.
>These would indicate you are saying someone's name as opposed to just 
>saying a word.  This is something japanese lacks.
>S  -     "      Surakian masculine
>T' -     "      feminine
>These would indicate that you are talking about something masculine or 
>feminine.
>
>With these additions, the word "Surak", for instance, would only have 
>three characters, <S>, <ur>, and <ak>.

This you need to explain more, I do not follow what your saying. We 
should carefully distinguish between a transliteration method using
English letters, and what Vulcan letters may exist. The method in ZC 
is a English transcription method, and Saul has described an alternate
method on his home page (which i forget the URL of at the moment).
What I have proposed is a Vulcan lettering system, which one should 
consider as distinct and seperate from the ZC and Sauls transcription
method.


>I already have symbols that can be used for these.  If Rob likes, I can 
>post them on a page of mine, he can see them, and add them to what he 
>has already done.  If that is acceptable.

By all means post them to your page, keeping in mind the requirements
I have made for my version of the letters - it should only take one 
stroke of the pen/brush to make. Nor should it have too much complexity
(I realize that complexity may seem rather vague, but I'm not sure how
else to measure it beyond that word).


>**I think the "a" sound should just be left alone.  The debate is far 
>too extranious.  The difference in cultural accent is going to cause 
>people to pronounce certain things differently no matter what examples 
>we give.  For example, I am not going to say things exactly the same as 
>list members in Britain, and certainly not like those in Hungary and 
>Germany.  The pronunciations already given are good enough for me.

The fact that people will initially speak Vulcan with their own 
accent does not mean we should not establish what it should sound like.



Rob Z.
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