Re: Dipthongs and other things (was Re: Arrghhhh!!!! and a Rob Zook Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:01:50 -0600 At 10:04 AM 11/28/97 -0600, Saul wrote: >> [approximate]+[tap]: >> lr yr wr >> >> They received no comment the first time, so I thought I'd toss them >in >> here. I got just the reaction I hoped for. I take it "Yikes" means >you >> don't like the last set? > >Yes, and now I remember not liking them before. In fact, I remember >saying something about them too: not only do the look impossible, >they don't sound Vulcan. And when I say they look impossible, I mean >from an articulatory perspective. I don't think they could be said >without introducing a syllable. So we could end up with words written >to look like this, but not pronounced like this. Except, if the >etymology of whl'q'n is any guide, these might have apostraphes >between them too. Which clusters specifically did you not like? Only, lr, yr, and wr? Or also the other two sets of: vl, zl, jl, xl, fl, sl, cl, hl; and mr, nr, n~r, ngr? I think a word like seems pretty feasible. Try this: start with your tongue at the edge of the flesh behind the teeth. Start to say the [l] sound and move your tongue back along the top of your mouth, keeping it in contact. At this point your tongue should be in the same position as it would normally be for an [r] but with the tip of your tongue touching instead of the sides. Lower the tongue to say the [a], and as you do the sides of your tongue will move into the position for an [r] for just a second. When you allow these steps to flow, it sounds like one syllable to me. Now, having said that I could have an inordinate fondness for consonant clusters involving an r sound. I have no major objections to not using them - not enough to cause any problems over it. As far as them not sounding Vulcan, I'm not sure how to go about disputing that. What specifically to you feel Vulcan should sound like? Did you have or get an impression of a certain preponderance of sounds? If so why would the aformentioned consonents violate that? >> >> fwhl vwhl swhl zwhl cwhl jwhl xwhl hwhl >> > >> >And these? I'm not looking forward to trying to pronounce any >cluster >> >with /whl/, in any position. >> >> I thought of these while typing all this up. One could class /whl/ >> with the laterals, so I threw them in too. Honestly I think we've >> made Vulcan entirely _too_ pronounceable at this point. Remember >that >> Vulcan is supposed to be hard for humans to pronounce. > >So is Klingon. I think I would class /whl/ as a lateral if it were >described as "voiceless l with lips rounded," or something like that. >And I think the most frightening thing about the possibilities above >is that they consist of fricative + 2 simultaneous fricatives. At >least have enough pity on us Terrans to limit such things to stop + 2 >simultaneous fricatives. Well, I may have an excessive fondness for difficult sounds in general. I like the idea of consonent clusters involving whl, but if I'm in the minority here by all means let's drop them and move on. >> The Lexicon does mention a few other diphthongs not in the >dictionary: >> au, eu, ou. > >I think /au/ does show up as . If memory serves -- and it may >well not -- is pronounced /plaak tau/. The are also >occurances of which could either be /au/ or /o/. Actually I had forgotten that one. I kind of like the way it looks when spelled , as well. Rob Z.