Re: The Mystery of the a:/aa Solved? (was Re: Phonomological  
Rob Zook 
Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:48:36 -0600

At 04:07 PM 10/29/97 -0600, Saul wrote:
>In response to my comments:
>>Actually, I maybe getting confused here. I think you have the right
>>of it. In the Zvelebil Lexicon, we have /x/ as sounding like the ch
>>in the Scottish "loch". I've been saying that, and I realized it's
>>not quite as far back in the throat as a I thought. I was thinking
>>of thlingan Hol's Q. One might regard that as a voiced glottal 
>>fricative. It's supposed to sound kind of like you're clearing your
>>throat.
>
>Well, now I'll have to look that up. I was under the impression that
>Okrand's <q> is a uvular stop, like Arabic's "quf," while the <Q> is a
>uvular fricative. That's still further forward than the glottis. Without
>being very still and meditative and making glottal stops over and over
>again, it can be difficult to recognize how far back (and down) the 
>glottis really is.

Well, I don't have my thlingan Hol book here at work, so I'll have
to catch you later tonight about it.

>He can't. The tense/lax distinction is an alternative to things like
>upper-mid. Here's a facsimile of the IPA vowel chart.

I was afraid it was more complex than that.

>        front       center      back
>close       i---------+----------u
>             \   I    \      U  |
>close-mid     e-----------------o
>               \       *       |
>open-mid        E--------------)
>                 ae     \     |
>open              A-----------a
>
>The position of these signs depends on the position of the tongue in the
>mouth when producing different vowels.
>
>i in beat
>I in bit
>ei in bait
>E in bet
>ae in bat
>A -- a Kennedy says "bark"
>* in butt
>u in boot
>U in butcher
>o in boat
>) in bought
>a in botch
>
>So the difference between e and ee and between o and oo is essentially
>one of height while the difference between i and ii and between u and uu 
>is one of both height and anteriority. The usefulness of "tension" as a 
>distinctive feature is debatable.

Probably, but it did let me make an atrocious pun.

>>I'm looking for a more fully fleshed out chart, but if anyone
>>else has one and can send it to me, or knows of one on the web
>>and can point it out - I'd appreciate it.
>
>Check out
>
>        http://www,arts,gla,ac,uk/IPA/vowels,html

Thanks, Saul that's the exactly the place I was looking for. 
Unfortunately, I found it before I checked my mail.

>>If I'm right about this Saul, then the a:/aa should sound like
>>the "a" in father.
>
>That assumption has been sneaking up on me. But then, what does <a> 
>sound like?

The Zvelebil Lexicon has an example for <a>:

a - as in French patte

I've heard patte pronounced two ways, with an "a" like in father 
and with an "a" like in pat.

So my guess is the /a/ sounds like the "a" in pat, and /aa/ sounds like 
the "a" in father.

Rob Z
--------------------------------------------------------
Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that
he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny 
the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic.
-- Notes from Underground, Fyodor Dostoyevsky